Mass dump at Wied Incita

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Mass dump at Wied Incita

Post by MWP admin » Sun Oct 22, 2006 12:08 pm

The lane which goes past and behind mount carmel hospital is a very tempting site for dumping to Wied Incita. Can the hospital authorities make a vehicle bar so as only authorized cars can pass through?
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Post by wolf » Mon Oct 23, 2006 8:44 pm

Ahhhhh MWP... long ago I reported to MEPA suggesting exactly what you are saying and on bahalf of my NGO reported offroading there on a scheduled ( suppost ) part of the garigue

needless to say nothing happened and the PRO there said I had no proof the offraoding was in scheduled area - at the time I had provided photos to prove offroading was taking place where ghansar ikhal grows - as you know this is quasi-endemic plant

i think the wjole area behind mt.carmel shud be made off-limits to vehicles except the dirt road

enough said

wolf

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Post by jackpot » Mon Oct 23, 2006 9:26 pm

Let me add insult to injury with this pic!
By the way: close to this site, Bernd found recently a fern, which up to now has never been recorded for the Maltese Islands! :D & :cry:
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Post by IL-PINE » Mon Oct 23, 2006 11:37 pm

Incredible! And we are talking of one of the most important valleys in our islands....... :crybaby:


A fern! A fern! A fern! Primitives, primitives :)

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Post by jackpot » Tue Oct 24, 2006 12:18 am

:D

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Post by wolf » Tue Oct 24, 2006 4:10 pm

Does the new top dog at Environment protection at MEPA ever visit this website ? .....zzzz.....zzzzzz........zzzzzz......zzzz....

wolf

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Post by robcar » Tue Oct 24, 2006 4:11 pm

I am embarrased and ashamed at the way we treat our country - No wonder really when the authorities that are supposed to control and regulate matters take such things so lightly

On the other hand it is nice to know that a fern new for Malta has been discovered

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Post by LR » Thu Nov 09, 2006 12:07 pm

First of all I would like to express my congratulations to the owner of this site. It is very well presented and contains a huge amount of useful information.

Further more I would like to agree that it is a shame to dump rubbish in valleys and senstive areas particularly when there are facilities to dispose of this waste. Dumping organic waste (still wrong IMO) is one thing and dumping rubber and plastic is another thing.

Though it might seem funny to many of you I do practise offroading as my hobby and I am also interested in the upkeep of the environment though these according to many seem to be conflicting interests. For me offroading is a way to enjoy the beauty of nature and it allows me and many of my like minded peers to escape from the hustle and bustle of congested life and enjoy the outdoors in a way which we like whilst at the same time trying to minimize the negative impact possible.

This goes to wolf.

I was one of the people which you seemed to have reported in Wied Incita towards the end of last year. For your information in wied incita there is a track which is listed on a map thus it passable to vehicles with a road licence. We pay for our road licence thus we are allowed to use it. If you had any impression that we were damaging some kind of plants instead of scampering to the other side of the valley and taking photos like a kid, you should have come to speak to us and point out what you are saying in here i.e. we are endagering species on the point of extinction. Not everyone is an expert on the plant species as you are. I am definitely not and while browsing through this site I can say that gained a lot of information, I am still far from the point where I can recognise plants at a glance.

Having your photo pasted on the newspapers for weeks after is not a nice thing especially when one takes into account that on the way out of the track of the valley we picked up rubbish which we disposed of in the appropriate manner.

It is not the first time that offroaders like me have picked up fridges and other stuff usually thrown by others during our offroad jaunts and I think for such a thing we should be commended and not condemned. Maybe you can contact your NGO who actually sent the photos to the newspapers and tell them that we do collect rubbish in places that only we with our offroad vehicles can access and instead of condemning us maybe they should ask for our help in removing them. My regular offroading friends will surely help out in this.

Furthermore speaking for myself of course as I am writing in a personal manner I personally am very courteos to walkers and ramblers, horses, bikers etc and often switch off my vehicle when I meet people in a narrow lane.

Maybe it is time that all users of the countryside join forces to try and aim for a sustainable enviromnent rather that pointing fingers at everyone. Whether you like it or not the countryside belongs to all of us and everyone uses it in a different way. Tolerance and acceptance of others is fundamental for this to succeed.

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Post by RB » Thu Nov 09, 2006 2:36 pm

What is this fern?

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Post by MWP admin » Thu Nov 09, 2006 7:28 pm

Welcome LR, and what an interesting (?conflicting?) post you have written here.

What vehicle you have, a Land Rover or a bike ?

I am (1) all out against off roading with motorbikes esp in soil paths and (2) against all vehicle offroading inside valley beds and areas not intended for vehicles such as garigues (2).

(1) they tend to dig out soil and turning 'pedestrian' pathways and passages into deep channels, quite dangerous in wet days to walk. Secondly, their loud noise is a nuissance in the open country side. (such as those remote control boats at Mistra - can they make silencers while they still enjoy their hobby!)

(2) The damage done is mostly the trampling of their vehicles over the rich flora found in valleys and garigue. Most of the rare and indigenous plants are found in garigues and valleys, often low growing (as 5cm-15cm) so from a landrover, one cannot determine on what the vahicle is trampling. This is most probably the big deal that environmentalists like myself do not want to see off roading in such habitats. Off roading in vehicle tracks and lanes, as you said you practice, is fine.


Like anything else, there are bad guys and genuine guys. The way you off road sounds to be clean and if you really tidy some dump from the countryside, you are doing a great thing. However, I have a feeling that there are much more bad guys in this sport, and perhaps common people in the street tag all off roaders as environment non-friendly.

To protect your image with the public (= off roaders), it is the responsibility of mature drivers like yourself to educate young off roaders of what is fine, and what is not for the benefit of the environment (i.e. the do's and dont's).

And if someone writes a letter in the papers, you have always the right and opportunity to reply back by a letter stating what you have said here. I never knew this thing of cleaning for example, and would be a great ida for your image to take a photo of your vehicle full with dump gathered from the countryside.

You can do this straight on this forum by attaching a picture (jpg) and refer this link to the media.

I am very glad that the website is serving as a public tool to increase awerness to our local flora.
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Post by Guest » Fri Nov 10, 2006 12:51 am

Thanks MWP admin.

As my nick states (LR) i do own a landrover and I definitely cannot comment for bike owners.

Regarding the rubbish collection issue, I will make sure that next time my friends and venture off the beaten tracks and collect some rubbish I will take a picture and post it here. We are not in the habit of taking pictures of the good deeds that we do. We just do it because we believe that it is the right thing to do. But for the purpose of visual proof if you want to call it that I will supply a photo. Though again i stress that I do it because I think it is right and not for any form of publicity.

Regarding the damage done by offroad vehicles I understand your concerns and I am in no way in a position of knowledge to contradict what you are saying. However there are some things that I want to point out.
I am a regular walker of valleys since I find this form of exercise much better than walking along the sliema front.
What I have noted is that many of the valley beds that I walk through are most of the time strewn with rocks and with little vegetation. Furthermore year after year I have found that the valley beds (when passable on foot due to flooding) are never the same and I think that this is surely not the work of offroad vehicles. I think that surely valley beds change because of heavy rains , rubbish flowing in the water course and sometimes agricultural intervention (unfortunate but I have seen traces of this) . And when u have more than 3 feet of water in a valley bed does not this kill any plants that grow there? If you had to point out the valley sides I would perfectly agree with you since plants growing there I have seen all year round, and if trampled by vehicles then it would obviously not be attributed to natural causes.
In addition from what I know offroad vehicles in a valley bed always pass from the same "track" time after time. This surely lessens to a huge degree the damage done to the plant life since IF there any forms of plant life after flooding or rocks moving along with the water, these might and I stress might be trampled upong by a vehicle.
Also in this equation I think there is the factor of ground pressure. To the best of my knowledge the ground pressure of a car is not that much different to that of a person. I stand to be corrected on this but I remember reading in a reference book that the ground pressure of military battle tank is less than that of a person. To illustrate this statement it was shown that a person standing in a muddy patch will sink while a tank will not. I think that this physics theory also factors in the equation of environmental impact.

Furthermore the valleys which are accessible by a vehicle are not that numerous to my knowledge. Some of them are simply too treacherous to be passed through apart from on foot and maybe with a motorbike.

Re the garigue I have to accept your points as correct since I am not that aware of the life which inhabits this habitat. While to me garigue might look as derelict land I have read enough in this website to prove me wrong. Then my question on this matter is? Do people walking on garigue effect it negatively. And here I am not thinking of peope who are learned on the subject like many readers of this forum who know what to look for to avoid damages. I am referring to Mr Joe Citizien who takes his wife, kid and dog for a walk along a garigue patch. Should those people also be stopped then?

You mention that offroaders are tagged as non eco friendly by the general public. I think that in this respect the gentleman who writes on the sunday newspaper might have a bit of an influence in this. If he could at least get he majority of the facts right it would be better but anyway, that is not for me to decide. I chose to voice my opinion in this forum because it seems that people can debate objectively ( at least I hope that that is the case).

And by saying that the majority of people who offroad are bad guys as you so state is a generalisation which I personally think that is a bit excessive. It would be the same thing as stating that all environmentalists are fundamentalists; something which I do not believe at all since I do have the pleasure of knowing a lot of green orientated people who can reason out properly and accept the realities of today's world.

regarding the offroad done in lanes which you seem to approve of there are still problems there. Like ramblers and all the other users we are still plagued by land squatters, farmers and the blessed RTO's. And while we might be in a vehicle it surely does not make us stronger. I myself have been threatened by a guy with a gun just because a track passed close to his field. This track was marked on a map, thus making it perfectly legal and my right to pass. However as some of you might have experienced, with a guy with a loaded gun you do not exactly have much time to say anything or even worse point out that it is a legitimate right to pass whether it is with a vehicle or on foot.

Good night to all

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Post by LR » Fri Nov 10, 2006 12:59 am

sorry this was me (LR) in the above post.

forgot to log in.

Thanks

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Post by wolf » Tue Jan 09, 2007 10:06 pm

Dear LR
First of all a belated welcome on the forum ! Secondly I am replying now because I have only seen this post today. Thirdly yes it was me who took your photos - plus shouted at you to the effect that what you were doing was illegal - punto. I am not one for shouting but your antics made me see red . What did you expect of a guy on his own confronting eight - ten people in four off-roaders ?
Mela jien mignun jew?
If you remember correctly I made no secret of the fact that I was shooting photos either.
For your info offroading on garigue IS ILLEGAL punto. More specifically you were offroading in an area with a good population of ghansar ikhal ( scilla sicula ) - a plant found only in malta / sicily and calabria - and near extinction in the last two places. Unwittingly or not you WERE contributing to making this plant extinct in Malta as well ...hardly pro-environment is that now mate ?
No before going off roading please choose your areas well - I suggest you try your skills on our still abundant pot-holed roads - there is one near Ghar Hasan - its beautiful for this sort of stuff - but I honestly appeal to you - keep off the garigue - you are killing the little natural ( and very rich in their own way ) habitats still extant on the island. The sorry fact that the law APPEARS to be on your side ( in the sense that the authorities seem to ignore your gross misdeeds ghax dan pajjiz tan-nejk u l-ambjent intuh biss lip service ) should not encourage you to go on in this destructive habit. As I said this is an appeal from the heart - we ( I suppose you agree with me on this ) abhor hunters habits because they kill wildlife but inadvertently or not ( you see I am giving you so much benefit of the doubt.... ) you are doing the same - whether by design or ignorance ( in the sense that you didnt know ) is irrelevant. As you rightly said there IS a track there but the guys I saw there ( 30 December 2005 to be exact ) veered off the track to try a few tricks climbing back over boulders onto the tracks - correct ?
I also humbly suggest that offroading and nature loving sit uncomfortably together but that is something you have to decide for yourself. It is good that at least you entered this forum to express your views because this is the way forward - discussion not confrontation.

By the way I think it was also you people who damaged one of the large pipes feeding the reservoir there - because I dont think it was me with my 72 kilos bulk ?

Sorry but your bit about picking rubbish and fridges does not impress me at all - to me it seems like sinning the same sins all over again because Dun Spir will absolve it all on Saturday qabel il-quddies .....salve regina u barra bid-daqq

Sahhiet

wolf

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Post by LR. » Wed Jan 10, 2007 3:10 pm

ah Mr Wolf

nice to have seen your reply... had lost hope of getting a reply...

Now let me answer your questions, challenge your statements etc...

re the shouting thing.. first of all I do not have bionic ears and cannot surely hear what someone is shouting across a valley. Plus anyway even if I had heard what you said, if someone tells you that you are doing something illegal do you accept it as face value and bow your head and say yes. You do not strike me as someone stupid Mr Wolf... anyway your statement saying that you are a mignun because you were one and we were more does not hold any water. What do you think we were going to do? Throw you in the valley?? We are normal human beings not monsters or aliens of another planet. Though we might not agree on many issues it does not mean that we go and assault people who are of a different opinion to us.

Re what grows in that valley, fair enough i cannot contradict what you are saying since i have no idea what plant you are referring to let alone identify it. Again I reiterate that if you had come to speak to us like normal persons do and let us know that such a rare plant grows in that area and maybe even show it to us, it would have been more beneficial to all... The plant might have been saved ( if we did trample on it after all) and we might have not appeared on the newspapers and still appear on the press release site of the Ramblers association..

Re areas to offroad in thanks a lot i will surely go and investigate the area u just mentioned. Anzi if you have any further sites please let me know..

Re garigue... first of all let us get things a bit clear... Garigue is an area which I personally loathe for offroad purposes.. And before you say that I am contradicting my actions please understand my reasoning.. It is very difficult to distinguish to the untrained eye ( like mine) what is garigue and what is not..Maybe you can help me here... The garigue which usually recognise immediately is one which I personally do not like walking upon let alone drive upon. The reason is very very simple albeit a selfish one.. Garigue due to its usually pointed surfaces tears tyres to bits.. And those my dear Mr Wolf cost a hell of a lot of money..
When i said that i did not distinguish garigue is because some garigue patches to me might look like normal rocks. Maybe I am rather ignorant in this matter and I will accept that however when garigue sometimes in certain areas does look like that to me..

To give u a better example.. In the pembroke area I can see that the garigue is evident. However even within this large area of garigue there are tracks and paths with no garigue present. Same in the xaghra il hamra area..

Whilst speaking about garigue i would like to share a theory which once someone rather knowledgeable in the field told me re garigue. It actually helps to have a disturbance of the garigue environment since it promulgates the dispersion of the seeds (not sure if it is the right word) to other areas thus increasing the coverage of the species rather than restricting them to the same area.. Maybe someone can reply to this. I myself have no idea if this is plausible or not.

Back to Mr Wolf's statements. You mentioned the hunters.. I myself agree with you re the hunters since I would never hurt an animal (In fact today I am in a rather foul mood since i have just read about those 3 dogs who have been hanged by some good soul in Gozo). However as long as it remains within the parameters of the law I will not and cannot condone it and point fingers..Sure I do not agree with it same as i do not agree with many other things which are however allowed by law.
Being compared to a hunter however is surely something which i do not accept. There is a clear difference in shooting something out of the sky and MAYBE trampling over something.. Plus one might also argue the biological differences between an animal and a plant, something which I will definitely not tackle for the simple reason that I am not competent enough to do it. One thing I point out is that people who eat only veggies on principle exist while people people who eat only meat and not vegetable on principle do not exist, at least to the best of my knowledge. However if you want to compare me to a hunter that is your idea and opinion and you have every right to do so. It does not meant that you are right of course.

Re the pipe thing. You can obviously think what you want of course though accusing when you have no idea who did it is surely irresponsible and unfair. I just hope that making this sort of accusations is not the norm in this forum though from what I have seen and read thankfully this attitude is the exception and not the norm.

Now the rubbish issue. Well you might think that i am doing it to cover up for my sins, i can assure that it i do not. Instead of whining i usually do things. It is not the first time i have confronted people throwing rubbish in the street (though since it is not in the countryside it might not concern you) and yes once did challeng people dumping rubbish in the countryside, since I myself live very close to a valley and see these things all the time. However again you are free to think whatever you want. If you think that it is not important then it is up to you. I just happen to think that it is worth the while and do it.

On a general note, one thing i hate is what i call a fundamentalist attitude. Extremists are not persons who I really can correlate and communicate with. Thank god I have seen that many people subscribing to this forum are not the type but rather people with certain beliefs and principles, but who can see the realities of this world.

Thanks

LR
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Post by LR » Wed Jan 10, 2007 3:19 pm

again this was me above...

I apologize but i seem to have become logged off in the process of formulating my reply.

Thanks again

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Post by wolf » Wed Jan 10, 2007 5:38 pm

Hi LR
Your branding me an extremist is a bit far out but I will take this in my stride....jihad ...jihad - just kidding. Also my ( perhaps exaggerated ) comparison with hunters is over the top - I apologise on this too. Garigue is easy to identify because ( and this is a bit difficult for you I suppose ) nature - at least in Malta - abhors bare rocks and various stuff grow there - I only know a few really bare rocks and they are all very very close to the sea - not offroading places. Unfortunately govt has never designated one or two sites for your type of activity and in truth this country has very little place for this stuff. I do think offroading on tracks ( visible and marked - and preferably assigned for such purposes ) could be allowed but I do not believe you should be the judge of that yourself - especially since you admit you do not always recognise garigue. In short you are still doing damage - and the prime example remains the disaster that is now the clay slopes at Selmun where these are now practically a desert.
I really do not intend to enter into a long online argument but what is wrong remains so - punto.
If on the other hand you do report dumping that is a positive - I do not shirk from that either.
And please I have enough experience in dealing with hunters and trappers not to enter into viva-voce arguments with ten people - even if you were to be all dressed like angels on the day

wolf

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Post by LR » Wed Jan 10, 2007 6:03 pm

wolf

I did not brand you as an extremist. I just said that i hate that type of attitude.. Your last post showed me that you do not seem one.. If i hinted that you are one I apologise as I do not mean that. I cannot judge people from one post..

re the dealing with us on the day I can understand. Now we were surely not dressed as angels hehe definitely not :)

Re offroading on tracks that is allowed.. Shown on OS map so that is allowed.

Re selmun that is one thing i want to clarify. Selmun has long been associated with us offroaders and in the past i cannot say that it was not used as such. However selmun has long not been used for this purpose. In fact nearly the whole of selmun has been given out as agricultural fields thus making the public part of it very very small

Selmun has become purely a place where in summer we go to swim. Why I like to go and swim there? Very simple. I myself hate the hustle and bustle and noise of maltese beaches and like quiet places where to relax and enjoy the sea.

And that is a right of ours since there is a track marked to go there. True it is not what you can call a road in normal sense since it is a rather potholed broken down road. However it is perfectly accessible to us. In fact it is not even termed as offroading for us to go down there. I go down there in summer in my road going expensive 4x4 and surely not going offroading in that. In fact all vehicles going down there stick to the track for the simple reason that going out of the track is simply too treacherous. And believe me mentioning rubbish. The amount of rubbish we have collected from that place is amazing. We always collect our own which is obvious since the next time we go we find rubbish. But we end up cleaning that of other people who come once in a blue moon and leave the place in a mess.

On the other hand the most damage i have seen to clay slopes year after year is done by something which neither you or I can stop. And that is nature. The deep gulleys I have seen have been caused by rain and surely not by 4wd vehicles. One thing that does affect me personally is being accused (not by you wolf in this case but as a generally comment) of doing things which i did not do.

Re entering into an argument I myself have no problem. This to me is not an argument but purely a debate between mature persons. ( at least it is till now) If i myself see senseless arguments and personal attacks I will be the first to stop posting.

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Post by wolf » Wed Jan 10, 2007 6:16 pm

debate - correct word. Damage at Selmun is now done there is nothing to do - nature however ( although a mighty and at times frightening force - ever got caught in a thunderstorm or seen the enormous rock fall at ghar hasan ? ) repairs and regenerates itself - it is only when us stupid humans try to impose on nature that bad things happen - the classic example of this is msida valley - the Creator ( or whoever... ) decided that this is the main watercourse for central malta but people dictated otherwise and we know the result .....

anyway mother nature usually protects its clay slopes by a particular binding plant ( i forget its name right now ) and it makes it hard for torrents to disrupt this ...of course sometimes water wins too.

anyway please keep off the garigues I sincerely hope to have convinced you to be more sensitive and rsponsible ..like you I was shocked silly by the awful pictures on maltastar - especially the primitive mafia connotation

wolf

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Post by LR » Wed Jan 10, 2007 6:32 pm

i agree 100 per cent with you of the huge power of nature.

to mention selmun again.. down close to the sea on the rocks there was a nice jutting out piece of rock where we could stay there in piece with our chairs , coolers etc... it was about 10 feet long and about 5 in width.. One year it was there and the next pooof the thing disappeared.. we found it at the bottom of the sea.. the thing must have been broken off in some storm or something. well at least not the fish seem to like it :)

just a question re garigue since u seem rather knowledgeable. What is the effect of humans trampling on garigue. I believe that the major harm is due to pressure exerted and disturbance. So will a stampede of people have negative effects? I hope that you can give me an objective answer since all answers i have recieved till now are
Car = big so does damage
Human = smaller so does no damage

and that to me is either oversimplifying matter or else debating very subjectively.
Does having a family with kids playing football or running around in bicycles have a negative effect. Please note that i am not trying to absolve offroad or anything but purely curious on the effects to garigue.

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Post by wolf » Wed Jan 10, 2007 8:08 pm

sorry your questions need an answer from someone more competent than me - sdravko / mwp / pine / robcar and the very knowledgeable german professor ( hey guys where the hell are you ? )
However large groups trampling unguided over sensitive areas do no good ....take rock pools and their fragile ecology ( there is a very good thread elsewhere on this forum ) ....i am sure you will agree human or vehicle trampling will not do any good to these micro habitats ....
as to football - well no one really plays on garigue but usually on abandoned fields or places like ta qali and yes sometimes areas are degraded as well in this way ...but hey i am not a nature fascist and you cannot win them all ...after all disturbed habitats have their own kind of fauna and flora as well though usually not of great interest to people on this forum !!

wolf

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Post by MWP admin » Thu Jan 11, 2007 10:44 am

Hi guys,

It is nice seeing you debating socially! Should be like that in the parlament too!


Wolf, the participation on the forum is like waves, sometimes you cant cope with all the new posts, and sometimes quite.


LR, I think your question is answered by the logic of relativity and I will reply applying this principle. Ideally, no interferences on the garigues (and any habitat), neither by footsteps, nor by tyres, but Malta is no deserted island, populated by 400,000 (+tourists) citizens.

Footstepping over garigue would have some minor negative effects on the vegetation but surely not as much as vehicles or motorcycles. This is a list of reasons:

1) Yes, humans are lighter and less damage is caused with their slippers compared to vehicle tyres. An LR with a driver might weigh 600kg, and using applied physics, in an inclined terrain, the weight is not divided equally between 4 wheels, but there is more pressure for example on the back wheels in an up-going slope. If the inclined slope is tilted to the left or right, than more of the weight is excerted on one tyre !

2) It is more likely that the extra weigt would squash bulbs in shallow pockets of soil between the applied weight (the tyre) and the rock just beneath. The hard sones in the soil will also have a damaging effect on excessive pressure.

3) Humans tend step on solid rock in first preference rather on plants. So a large percentage of the actual steps are on solid rock.
Vehicles travel in straight line without any discrimination. "Minn fejn nghaddi ghaddjet!

4) The importnant yet overlooked/ignored rock lichens can bear human weight (unless you jump over them) but not vehicles.

5) Humans rarely walk in rockpools of any size (as nobody wants wet feet). LR cant avoid all rockpools, or the smaller ones. (and I have the feeling that some drivers would adore the splashing of water. 2 of the 20+ endemic flora species live in rockpools (Elatine gussoneiand Zannichellia melitensis) not mentioning species of other kingdoms beyond my knowledge. (Eg Fungi, insects, algae, etc)

6) When an LR is 'trapped' in some kind of soft spot, funny angle, postion, (call it what you want) the driver would simply press the gas pedal to get out. The rotation of the wheels (skidding in vain) is very damaging as it disturbs and destroy all soil beneath and bye bye bulbs, seedlings and any delicate flora. Bil-Malti meta nghidu tirrejza ir-roti u jibdew iduru fil vojt. (sorry for my lack of jargon here)

7) Dripping oil or any lubricants over soil are another disadvantage.


8) From the subconcious psychological aspect, the general concept of humans walking on garigue is not bothering, but seeing vehicles on garigue elict the sense of "damaging nature and wildlife" or basically "inappropriate" So for example an LR passing from the coast garigue at Dingli Cliffs would surely not please anyone.

9) On a similar note, the noise from the engine would disturb the peace and sound of nature to anyone in the area. For the fun of one, spoil that of a hunded!

For example, I really really really..... hate those motor boats at Mistra Bay on Sat/Sun afternoon. They can be heard over a mile and they really spoil the walk. (can they make silencers!)

LR, when I and everybody else, goes for a walk in the countryside, we would expect, nature, views, fresh air, and above all a break from the daily noise, traffic and pollution. I would also add people, but that is quite difficult in overpop Malta.




There might be other more biological reasons too that other members of better knowledge can comment about.

Sorry for my non-academic English :oops: but I am sure everyone understood my points
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Post by wolf » Thu Jan 11, 2007 5:35 pm

MWP
Thanks for your very explanatory reply which hopefully will help LR realize that there ARE lesser life forms which deserve our respect - quite a few protected by law as well
LR
No hard feelings - believe me

wolf

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Post by MWP admin. » Thu Jan 11, 2007 9:01 pm

Thanks Wolf (I was in the mood!),

"quite a few protected by law as well "

LR: just came in mind the saghtar
(Thymbra capitata) is a legally protected plant and I cant imagine a LandRover driver to avoid all Medit. thyme the are found on almost all garigues. You would probably jump on me and telling that many take saghtar for the cribs - well, from few years ago, that is an illegal act too.

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Post by LR » Thu Jan 11, 2007 9:05 pm

Thanks for the info...

no hard feelings wolf do not worry...

and one thing i would like to clarify.. all the vehicles at least to my knowledge who do offroad are equipped with silencers..the reason is simple.. all the vehicles are road registered, VRt'ed etc hence all have to be equipped with all the legally mandatory accessories and that includes silencers..
U guys seem to have a huge antipathy towards motorcycles.. Whether these have silencers or not i do not know... I love bikes myself as well though have never owned an offroad bike..

One thing which i think surely does a lot of damage as you rightly so mentioned is when people press on the gas and spin wheels to overcome an obstacle. That is what we call wheelspin. Funnily enough abroad there are programs which subscribe to what they call a Thread Lightly Program which tries to embrace driving practices which are "kinder" to nature. And wheelspin is one thing which they talk about and that this should be avoided at all costs. And here yes i do agree with you that it might do excessive harm and should be avoided.

The rock pools thing hmm to be honest i am not so sure for the simple reason that while people might think that majority of offroaders might love splashing about in water etc.. unless you really know what there is and how deep etc no one in his right mind would attempt. Though we are called crazy because we spend money on a vehicle to trash it to bits in reality it is not the case. We are not that crazy believe me. At least I am not..

Oil and other stuff dripping is definitely damaging and I cannot not agree with you on this as well..

Honestly the pressure thing i am not so sure.. What might seem obvious sometimes is not and to be honest i still need to find the time to do some decent research on this. What is a big question mark is how much pressure does a tyre really exert. When one accounts the fact that a tyre footprint is usually slightly bigger than a foot (well unless u have size 48 feet or so) and that the majority of times the weight is divided by 4 since many of the times a vehicle not that inclined i ask a question mark whether a vehicle exerted pressure is really that much more than that of a person.
I always use an example which i have already used. Take a main battle tank weighing at around 5 tons or so and a human weighing 75- 80 kilos. If u put them in a muddy area the human will sink and the tank will not. I remember reading this when I was reading about the Scorpion Tank (An British army light tank) when it specifically said that it has a ground pressure less than that of a human.

BTW liked the parliament comparison. Kellhom bzonn jiddibattu hekk

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Post by MWP admin » Fri Jan 12, 2007 9:57 am

Thanks LR for the reply

I have an idea for all of you, since everyone have to respect other's hobbies.

Why dont you try and convince the minister/Mepa so that one of the abandoned Quarries will be filled and made of rough terrain and difficult tracks (with muddy pools, rocks, some trees if you want... etc), and that area will be reserved for land rover and Motorcyles fans. Some big quarries are over a mile accross!!

:idea:
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Post by LR » Fri Jan 12, 2007 10:04 am

hehe stephen u think that they would give us such a site..

Just to point out that a quarry today is worth more money empty of stone rather than filled with stone. The reason is simple. They are being used to dump waste in there against a payment...

Hence they will surely not allocate a quarry for offroading purposes.

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Post by MWP admin » Fri Jan 12, 2007 10:27 am

Down to realistic Malta, you should be 99.99% right :cry:

Nevertheless, there is nothing to loose to make at least one attempt by your organisations/associations ! Dont choose the largest quarry either!
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Post by Guest » Mon Jan 15, 2007 12:54 pm

hi guys

very intersting debate over here, i'm personally a land rover owner too, and share much with LR's hobby. I was hit by what the administrator wrote about filling a uarry and use it, but dammit i think that even in this ideal scenario, some extreme greenie will claim we are damaging nature, even if this was never planted nor cared after.

A good example of this is the kennedy grove area, where a Permit was refused to our local offroading club on the grounds that some rare specie is growing over there in the rubble dumped when the seabank was cleaned. Now we did not disturb this rare specie, but who took the initiative to conserve it??.

BTW mr wolf, even though i refrain from doin the less damage as much as possible, it please note that the photo that you shot of LR and his mates was exactly on some soil, that was dumped illegally as to close the access of a the pathways in incita valley, and from past experience let me assure you that some people do not want you in their vicinities, and while we offroaders have car bodies to slightly protect us, your haversack would mean nuts to shotguns!! So I reckon it would be much better for all parties to interact together rather than stab each other!!

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Post by Guest » Mon Jan 15, 2007 12:56 pm

hi guys

sorry for not mentioning it in the previous post, as regards to what the admistrator said about the quarry, the local offroad club is in its fourth year trying to achieve what you proposed!!!

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Post by MWP admin » Mon Jan 15, 2007 2:24 pm

Hi LR guys! Welcome to the forum and it would be nicer if you register and have an own nick otherwise everyone would be guest and confusion arises!

"extreme greenie will claim we are damaging nature"

Put your mind at rest that no green cap would react as you are supposing, becasue there wuld be no nature to destroy, it all been destroyed by the quarry.

Have they told you the name of the rare species?
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